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	<title>Comments on: Implied Experience, Other Media, and RPGs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/</link>
	<description>Games for the Prettiest One</description>
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		<title>By: Joshua BishopRoby</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8342</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua BishopRoby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-8342</guid>
		<description>Glad to hear you got some use out of it, Justin!

Sailing for Atlantis will eventually see publication, but it is not now and I do not expect it will ever be one of my &quot;big projects.&quot;  More likely I&#039;ll lay it out with some public-domain art when I have a spare weekend sometime, and throw it up on Lulu.  When will that happen?  Who the hell knows.

On the other hand, if you wanted to post AP on your game, I&#039;d love to hear about it, and address any problems or rough bits that you hit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to hear you got some use out of it, Justin!</p>
<p>Sailing for Atlantis will eventually see publication, but it is not now and I do not expect it will ever be one of my &#8220;big projects.&#8221;  More likely I&#8217;ll lay it out with some public-domain art when I have a spare weekend sometime, and throw it up on Lulu.  When will that happen?  Who the hell knows.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you wanted to post AP on your game, I&#8217;d love to hear about it, and address any problems or rough bits that you hit.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-8317</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-8317</guid>
		<description>Played the first three islands of a game of &#039;Sailing for Atlantis&#039; with some mates last night, and - despite finding the rules kind of complicated at first - enjoyed ourselves thoroughly...

Of course, we started out fairly surreal (on the island of Lisbon, formerly the capital of Portugal, where angry Spaniards are engaged in a conflict with the Portugese owners of a local papermill), and things only really degraded from there.  Still, much fun was had by all, and it was an awesome and fairly light-hearted ice-breaker for a new rping group.

Any news on revising / updating the rules?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Played the first three islands of a game of &#8216;Sailing for Atlantis&#8217; with some mates last night, and &#8211; despite finding the rules kind of complicated at first &#8211; enjoyed ourselves thoroughly&#8230;</p>
<p>Of course, we started out fairly surreal (on the island of Lisbon, formerly the capital of Portugal, where angry Spaniards are engaged in a conflict with the Portugese owners of a local papermill), and things only really degraded from there.  Still, much fun was had by all, and it was an awesome and fairly light-hearted ice-breaker for a new rping group.</p>
<p>Any news on revising / updating the rules?</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua BishopRoby</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-6686</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua BishopRoby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 15:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-6686</guid>
		<description>Victor, feel free to &lt;a href=&quot;http://kallistipress.com/downloads/SailingForAtlantis.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;download the current version&lt;/a&gt;.  It&#039;ll be a while before I get around to revising it for print.  I&#039;d love to hear what you think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Victor, feel free to <a href="http://kallistipress.com/downloads/SailingForAtlantis.pdf" rel="nofollow">download the current version</a>.  It&#8217;ll be a while before I get around to revising it for print.  I&#8217;d love to hear what you think.</p>
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		<title>By: Victor Gijsbers</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-6684</link>
		<dc:creator>Victor Gijsbers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-6684</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d swear I had posted to this thread? I&#039;ll say it again, though in less words: your description of Sailing for Atlantis sounds very interesting. As you know, I like games where almost everything is developed during play. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d swear I had posted to this thread? I&#8217;ll say it again, though in less words: your description of Sailing for Atlantis sounds very interesting. As you know, I like games where almost everything is developed during play. <img src='http://kallistipress.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tommi Brander</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-6430</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommi Brander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-6430</guid>
		<description>&quot;Now, I will say, again with disclaimers, that this approach looks really poor for immersion. Starting with only what is necessary for the experience means that character motivations and histories are often created midplay rather than preplay. This means that characters often start as blank slates, and it’s hard to get into character when there is not yet any character to get into. And if the game is primarily about creating from wholecloth, people who are interested in detailed piecework are going to be disappointed. It’s good for some stuff, and bad for others.&quot;

There are self-identified immersive players who prefer develop-in-play to develop-at-start (to use r.g.f.a. terminology). A friend of mine can get immersed in both ways. I don&#039;t know how common it is.

-Tommi Brander</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Now, I will say, again with disclaimers, that this approach looks really poor for immersion. Starting with only what is necessary for the experience means that character motivations and histories are often created midplay rather than preplay. This means that characters often start as blank slates, and it’s hard to get into character when there is not yet any character to get into. And if the game is primarily about creating from wholecloth, people who are interested in detailed piecework are going to be disappointed. It’s good for some stuff, and bad for others.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are self-identified immersive players who prefer develop-in-play to develop-at-start (to use r.g.f.a. terminology). A friend of mine can get immersed in both ways. I don&#8217;t know how common it is.</p>
<p>-Tommi Brander</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua BishopRoby</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-6409</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua BishopRoby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-6409</guid>
		<description>Seriously, Troy, I think you&#039;re splitting hairs at this point.  What I&#039;m getting at is &quot;the experience of roleplay can be a direct and chronological emulation of a fictional series of events or it can be a pastiche of implications and signifiers pointing at a fictional series of events.&quot;  This is, in Big Model terms, all at the technique level; CA is relatively irrelevant here.

Roger, why is the &lt;em&gt;pretend&lt;/em&gt; so important to you in there?  In my head, roleplaying is an experience in and of itself.  Players experience a fiction, sure, but it&#039;s still an experience nonetheless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously, Troy, I think you&#8217;re splitting hairs at this point.  What I&#8217;m getting at is &#8220;the experience of roleplay can be a direct and chronological emulation of a fictional series of events or it can be a pastiche of implications and signifiers pointing at a fictional series of events.&#8221;  This is, in Big Model terms, all at the technique level; CA is relatively irrelevant here.</p>
<p>Roger, why is the <em>pretend</em> so important to you in there?  In my head, roleplaying is an experience in and of itself.  Players experience a fiction, sure, but it&#8217;s still an experience nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: Troy_Costisick</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-6393</link>
		<dc:creator>Troy_Costisick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-6393</guid>
		<description>Heya,

This is a good conversation.  “What would it be like to be a closeted homosexual in an oppressive society?” says Exploration of Character to me, so does “What would it be like to judge the sins of an entire town?” The focus of each question is on the character (the homosexual and the judge).  Not anything else.  The question “What would it be like to judge the sins of an entire town?” is exploration of Situation, I think.  Again, that is a Sim agenda.

Now, if the questions were worded &quot;How would I treat homosexuals if I lived in an oppressive society?&quot; or &quot;How would I judge various sins committed by a diverse group of people?&quot; I think you would, in these cases, have thematic (Narrativist) play.  The difference between them is that the second set of questions puts the focus on the player and the first set puts the focus on the character. 

Additionally, if the questions were worded &quot;How would I suvive as a homosexual in an oppressive society?&quot; or &quot;How could I win power as a judge in a town full of sinners?&quot; you might have the potential for Gamist play.  In these focus is on challenge and strategy, but not solely on the characters themselves.

What do you think?  :)

Peace,

-Troy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heya,</p>
<p>This is a good conversation.  “What would it be like to be a closeted homosexual in an oppressive society?” says Exploration of Character to me, so does “What would it be like to judge the sins of an entire town?” The focus of each question is on the character (the homosexual and the judge).  Not anything else.  The question “What would it be like to judge the sins of an entire town?” is exploration of Situation, I think.  Again, that is a Sim agenda.</p>
<p>Now, if the questions were worded &#8220;How would I treat homosexuals if I lived in an oppressive society?&#8221; or &#8220;How would I judge various sins committed by a diverse group of people?&#8221; I think you would, in these cases, have thematic (Narrativist) play.  The difference between them is that the second set of questions puts the focus on the player and the first set puts the focus on the character. </p>
<p>Additionally, if the questions were worded &#8220;How would I suvive as a homosexual in an oppressive society?&#8221; or &#8220;How could I win power as a judge in a town full of sinners?&#8221; you might have the potential for Gamist play.  In these focus is on challenge and strategy, but not solely on the characters themselves.</p>
<p>What do you think?  <img src='http://kallistipress.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Peace,</p>
<p>-Troy</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-6381</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-6381</guid>
		<description>&gt; “RPGs let you be Frodo.” 

My take on it is &quot;RPGS let you &lt;i&gt;pretend&lt;/i&gt; to be Frodo.&quot;  They let you &lt;i&gt;pretend&lt;/i&gt; you are experiencing what it would be like to enter a liminal state where you interact with the apotheoses of significant influences in your life, whether they be oppression, intolerance, compassion, stress, camaraderie, or many others.

I happen to think the &lt;i&gt;pretend&lt;/i&gt; in there is important, although there may well be many people who don&#039;t.  (To be all nuanced and erudite about it, by &quot;pretend&quot; I mean &quot;simulate in the Baudrillardian sense&quot;, in case someone was wondering.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; “RPGs let you be Frodo.” </p>
<p>My take on it is &#8220;RPGS let you <i>pretend</i> to be Frodo.&#8221;  They let you <i>pretend</i> you are experiencing what it would be like to enter a liminal state where you interact with the apotheoses of significant influences in your life, whether they be oppression, intolerance, compassion, stress, camaraderie, or many others.</p>
<p>I happen to think the <i>pretend</i> in there is important, although there may well be many people who don&#8217;t.  (To be all nuanced and erudite about it, by &#8220;pretend&#8221; I mean &#8220;simulate in the Baudrillardian sense&#8221;, in case someone was wondering.)</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua BishopRoby</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-6331</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua BishopRoby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-6331</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m talking a bit broader.  &quot;What would it be like to be a closeted homosexual in an oppressive society?&quot;  &quot;What would it be like to put one goal above all others, to detriment of the rest of my life?&quot;  &quot;What would it be like to judge the sins of an entire town?&quot;  If you want to get into Big Model terminology, I&#039;m talking about exploration, which Ron identifies as the root of all roleplaying.  I won&#039;t argue with him on that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m talking a bit broader.  &#8220;What would it be like to be a closeted homosexual in an oppressive society?&#8221;  &#8220;What would it be like to put one goal above all others, to detriment of the rest of my life?&#8221;  &#8220;What would it be like to judge the sins of an entire town?&#8221;  If you want to get into Big Model terminology, I&#8217;m talking about exploration, which Ron identifies as the root of all roleplaying.  I won&#8217;t argue with him on that point.</p>
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		<title>By: Troy_Costisick</title>
		<link>http://kallistipress.com/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/comment-page-1/#comment-6322</link>
		<dc:creator>Troy_Costisick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kallistipress.com/blog/2006-09-15/implied-experience-other-media-and-rpgs/#comment-6322</guid>
		<description>Hmm.  Very interesting.  I always associated &quot;What would it be like to....&quot; as a SIM priority.  &quot;What would it be like to adventure in a fantasy world&quot;, &quot;What would it be like to fight a Rennaisance Duel according to the rules of dueling&quot;, &quot;What would it be like to be a Jedi in Star Wars.&quot;  Those three things are exlporation of Setting, exploration of System, and exploration of Character- all in the SIM creatie Agenda.  At laest in my mind they are.  What do you think?

Peace,

-Troy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  Very interesting.  I always associated &#8220;What would it be like to&#8230;.&#8221; as a SIM priority.  &#8220;What would it be like to adventure in a fantasy world&#8221;, &#8220;What would it be like to fight a Rennaisance Duel according to the rules of dueling&#8221;, &#8220;What would it be like to be a Jedi in Star Wars.&#8221;  Those three things are exlporation of Setting, exploration of System, and exploration of Character- all in the SIM creatie Agenda.  At laest in my mind they are.  What do you think?</p>
<p>Peace,</p>
<p>-Troy</p>
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